Just out of curiosity, am I the only one that seems to be happy to just sit on a dining chair when at my desk?
When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc.
I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old wooden dining chair. No pain. No aches. No RSI. No CTS.
I've been doing this for decades and nothing seems to have gone wrong yet. I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?
Are all the uber-expensive office chairs just snake oil? Or have I just been lucky?
I found youth will overcome a lot of bad ergonomic habits.
You are doing well by standing. Keeping your core strong will help.
The thing you have to ask yourself is - are you using willpower to overcome bad seating? If you have good ergonomics you will maintain good posture even when you're tired. The idea is to balance your body so it stays in place. Keep your head balanced, your arms relaxed without hunching your shoulders, your wrists at a good angle. If you're looking to the side or up or down, you're going to use muscles instead of balance to maintain your position. (Laptops are not ergonomic and are responsible for long term damage to your body - there are no osha approved laptops)
If you have your wrists at a bad angle, on the hard desk or across the sharp edge of a keyboard, the little ropes and pulleys that get your forearms to move your fingers will wear out. (I use a wrist rest to maintain position, and keep everything warm and comfy)
At 47 I like dining table chairs almost more than office chairs.
Office chairs only help with positioning myself to the desk as those roll and twist, otherwise a simple dining table chair provides the same comfort while sitting.
I also have a standing desk and use it often, it is good for my legs and posture. But I also do work laying down on sofa or bed from time to time when the activity and mental state asks for it.
As for ergonomic gadgets those never helped, simply trying to keep myself strain free - like instead of having split keyboards holding my hands in angle over the keyboard without bending my wrist -, relaxed, but trying also holding myself not flowing down of furniture. In some kind of balance.
Let me make a guess, you are around 5'11" (180cm) and 175 lbs (80kg), or around average for a male? Because a "dining table chair", a universal product if there is one, is made for average sized humans.
It is funny though that Aeron is brought up as an example of a "universal" design: they are admittedly not universal since they offer 3 sizes (A, B and C). When looking at chairs, I've only went with their Embody because of the fluid back mobility it allows when sitting, though I still wonder if I should have gotten Aeron C (I always found it sad they did not continue with the practice of differently sized chairs with Embody which I love). I've also have a sit/stand desk that I switch between every day for the last ~10 years, but I've still developed back problems.
Why do I say all that — at 6'5" (195cm) I believe to have pretty strong core and legs, but I developed back problems when I got a kid (herniated discs, with a nerve getting pinched in the lumbar area recently). I live in a world where everything is too low for me, and I have to take an unergonomic position to achieve many things. Especially with kids (baby cots, strollers, they are really short, but everything, really).
A dining table chair has a seat length that generally allows me to only rest most of my bottom on it, but basically nothing of the thighs (which are also longer than average even for people my own height), which means that majority of my 90-100kg weight is concentrated on a small area. That hurts, so I have to move around and change the area under pressure.
I had to stop playing jumping sports (I jump around 30 inches/75cm high when not in regular exercise, so that's how far down I "fall" when going down) because impact on landing was too strong and it started hurting in my back. Yet after being in bed rest for 5 days for a pinched nerve, I went for physical therapy and could immediately hold plank position for >1 minute. "Your core is strong, so it is probably genetics", my physiotherapist would say. It's not only genetics, it is the fact that I am outside the design range for all the products that people use every day (I am probably among the 3% of largest humans and even the widest covering "universal" products cover from 5-95%: I can imagine very short people to have similar issues). I can barely find a car I can comfortably drive (if I push the seat back enough so my thighs rest on the seat instead of being in a squat, steering column will frequently not come out long enough, and my shoulders will hurt). I might fit in a Mercedes S-Class, but sorry, I can't afford it (though even that is designed for comfortable sitting in the back).
And I thought that's what the OP is about. Are you averagely sized, or do you maybe have some parts extra long or extra short? Or are your shoulders narrow or maybe extra wide (eg. I can imagine someone with very wide shoulders having more trouble with laptop keyboards)? Even the way our elbows and tendons connect is very different, so relative position of every limb could be taken into account to develop non-universal products.
I guess you have to find where you are "unusual" in your body constitution to really emphatise with the OP and how "universal" design is not the way to go when designing products for the physical world.
The same holds for the virtual world, but for some marginalized groups (at least in the past, like people with disabilities), legislation is required to make sure the basics are available to them. But generally, the market is ripe for less universal products.
I want to agree. But I turned forty a few years ago, and I'm in the same boat as the top post. Either using a dining chair or a workout bench as my sitting option.
That is, I can't lean on youth. But I also don't have near the pains mentioned on so many message boards.
Now, do I have trouble staying focused? Oh yeah. Staying motivated? You bet. Haven't exactly been a pleasant year. But my seating seems to be the least impactful thing going on right now. :(
>I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?
I think there are a lot of stressed and unconditioned office workers who want some magical device to solve everything. Vertical mice, split vertical keyboards, expensive chairs. None of it replaces exercise.
This is literally the opposite of a controversial opinion. It's just the magic solution in a different shape.
Most things in life aren't some sort of instant solution. If you run you won't live to be a hundred. If you smoke you won't get lung cancer. What these actions do is shift your probability distribution in certain ways. Running frequently improves your overall life-expectancy, smoking increases your risk of lung cancer¹. You can do everything right and still have trouble. You can avoid every intervention and still have things work out.
So, if you're outcomes-oriented you modify your environment and behaviour to match the outcomes you want based on what you know to be capable. Getting vertical mice, split keyboards, expensive chairs are all interventions that shift your distribution to better outcomes. Lifting well and frequently, having better posture, taking breaks to move are also interventions that shift your distribution to better outcomes. Each intervention moves you to a better state of being.
Some interventions require you to apply techniques of willpower and motivation. Others require you to place yourself in an environment where those things aren't tested. Yet others are just tools. I think I would go out on a limb to say that most people younger than their early 30s who aim to spend themselves into good health are making moves that are rational.
Credentials here at bottom to prove I'm not some fat guy trying to justify not working out. My lift PRs indicate I'm not a novice (though not particularly exceptional). My weight at PRs (unless otherwise stated) was 165 lbs (75 kg). My height is 6' (184 cm).
Deadlift: 375 lbs at 180 lbs body weight, 3x315 lbs at 165 lbs
Squat: 275 lbs
Front Squat: 225 lbs
Clean and Jerk: 135 lbs
5k time: 23:53 (within 3 mos of the PRs)
¹ A quick test for your intuition for these events is to imagine in your head what you think the incidence of lung cancer in heavy lifetime smokers is and then look it up. 95%? 75%? 50%? 25%? 12%? 5%?
I know lifting weight is a big thing in the US, but not so much in my part of the world. Sometimes my impression is that many guys primarily want big muscles and conveniently convince themselves it is the way to go to be in good health. Not saying it's not but because it looks unnatural and isn't functional (I mean, have homo sapiens ever needed that kind of muscles?), I'm just wondering if it's really that healthy.
Are there any proven benefits to lifting heavy weight (compared to let say having a regular physical activity such as swimming, hiking, cycling, bodyweight exercises?)
The problem with asking a question like that is that you're going to get links to individual papers, but that's not a reasonable way to study science. You need the aggregate.
So, if you're wondering about whether lifting is good for your health, you should first identify what outcomes you're aiming for and then look for yourself what interventions increase the likelihood of those outcomes. I cannot provide specifically the information you desire in an economical way¹.
¹ For instance, maybe you don't care to be able to run some arbitrary distance. Maybe it isn't important to you to be able to cliff dive. Maybe it isn't important to you to live to 80. Maybe you consider being muscular to be of negative utility on its own. The state space is too large for me to capture here.
I do wonder if all these easily found studies have accounted for survivorship bias. I.e. those who can achieve those goals are those most likely to not develop RSI.
Ironically my RSI began within a few months of starting weight training.
Not sure where that spine fragility myth came from.
I used to have back and wrist pain. Now I do mild exercise like a brisk daily walk and 100 burpees. Basically the bare minimum to check off my exercise box. I read Sarnos book and took to heart the idea that a lot of aches and pains are not injuries but are in your head.
Deadlifting incorrectly will most likely fuck your back. :)
I have been most happy (backwise) while running and doing a light version of cross fit (where correct lifting was a part of) couple of times every day.
But there are also us who are simply outside the size range any chair is designed for (I've generally been at 90-95kg at 195cm before hurting my back and limiting sports). Unfortunately, but expensive chairs are then usually the only way to go if you want to get a comparable experience to what "average size" humans get with "any chair". I can easily imagine short people having similar problems on the other end of the scale (hurting thighs because their feet can't reach the ground), or simply disproportionate people too.
There is no amount of exercise that will let any human hold a squat position for 8 hours day-in, day-out.
As OP indicates, "universal" design is the problem.
> I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?
I've done that for decades. I'd periodically suffer from debilitating back pain, where I couldn't even tie my shoes. I finally went to the doc, who said my problem was "weak back muscles". I pointed out the running, and the doc said "running does nothing for your back."
He gave me an illustrated guide to back exercises, aka core strength exercises. I do them 3x per week, and added some more I derived from yootoob back excercise.
Does it work? Hell yes. I wouldn't say my back never bothers me, but the pain has faded enough that it doesn't bother me anymore, and no more debilitating episodes.
It's been well over 10 years now. I don't enjoy the exercises, but I enjoy being free of the pain.
Sitting does two things: it causes your hip flexors to do work all day, and it prevents your gluteus maximus from doing anything at all.
Doing this for hours on end trains the body tries to use its hip flexors for everything. Standing, lifting things, walking, even slow running. The hip flexors aren't meant to do this, and they are connected of course to your back muscles.
But the back muscles activated in concert with the hip flexors are not the "right" ones. They contort your back and cause imbalances and eventually back pain.
Running CAN help undo this.
But at certain paces of running (very slow ones that aren't much more than walking), the butt still is not used well, and you're not working to undo the 8+ hours of training you've given your hip flexors.
The more vigorous the running, the more your "prime path" evolutionary pathways of hamstrings, gluteus maximi, and lower back will be activated and trained.
Of course the older you are, the harder it is to do these paces, either sustained or speedwork.
Straight leg deadlifts can also help, but still isn't as good training for undoing the sitting position.
I'm not a doctor, but running can definitely work out your back. Long trail runs with lots of elevation gain leave me with a sore lower back, mostly because "leaning into" the hill keeps my lower back muscles working to maintain posture. I've only experienced this when pushing lots of mileage on big hills, though differences in posture may result in different sorts of runs triggering this. My running buddy has complained about this on much shorter runs.
It's entirely possible this is useless for preventing back pain, or may even be bad for my back, but I wanted to share.
There might well be a benefit in the lower back, but the scapula and trapezoids are particularly sensitive to desk work
, and running is not going to help them.
No, it's long gone :-) But you can find a lot on youtube. Many of them are in the P-90X "Ab Ripper X" video. It's mainly lying prone on the floor and lifting both ends of your body 25 times, then leaving the ends on the floor and lifting the center. Repeat on left side, right side, top side, bottom side.
The hardest one for me is lying face down, arms extended forward. Lift your chest and legs off the ground. Oww! These are called "Supermans" because you look like Superman flying through the air.
It'll give you a vast new appreciation for when a dancer lifts his partner overhead by the waist and she gracefully lies prone only supported by his hands on her waist.
I double-dare you to even get your hands an inch off the ground!
I love the mesh HM Aeron Chair because my clothes won't get sweaty during the summer.
One of the best things about the Bay Area is that HM chairs are always easy to find used on Craigslist for ~$250 and they'll last 10+ years. That's not expensive at all.
Tip: replace the wheels with "roller blade" chair wheels. They're quiet!
The uber-expensive office chairs are really comfortable--if you pick one that works for you and properly adjust it. If you have an office and can afford it, it's IMO worth it to equip it with a good chair.
That said, I probably only work in my office half the day and work in other spots around the house (including the dining room table) the rest of the time. (And get up and walk around quite frequently.)
I haven't even turned 30 yet, so I imagine my body might well slowly be building up resentment towards me which will materialise in 20 years and I'll regret saying all of this, but...
So far, my body has been happy spending extended amounts of time in any chair I set under it. Including the staple dining chair, or uncushioned outdoor wooden chair.
However, I rarely sit still for long periods of time. I'm constantly shifting my position and doing all sorts of seated acrobatics to relieve tension and get variation. (I do this also in fancy ergonomic chairs.) Maybe this is what makes it work? I have no idea.
It's good to move around a lot, yeah. But in a few years you will find that the position you sit does indeed matter. It's actually super easy to sit "correctly" in a chair though, to avoid the typical problems. I wish I learned it way earlier, because my posture is terrible as a result of my years and years of slouching in chairs at a computer for hours on end. I sat on a stupid wooden chair for most of my teenage years, for literally hours and hours -- and I never sat "correctly" in that chair.
You're a bit lucky because the back is very likely to have pain in sedentary office workers. I think the standing and running are both key, yes, movement and change are key to keeping our fluidic bodies healthy.
Then again, you are lucky because all manner of injuries, genetic weakness, and former life conditions have not all occurred, thus gotten you to this healthy spot. For instance, car or sporting accidents or falls, these could all lead to chronic weakness in the body, and luck determines their occurence.
It is important that you maintain a good and ergonomically correct posture. A chair is simply a tool to help you do that. If you are average sized or close to average size, it is possible that you can find a cheaper chair which works for you. The advantage of ergonomic office chairs is that they tend to have enough adjustments for a wide range of body sizes. On the flip side, an expensive office chair is not going to solve anything unless you take the time to adjust it properly.
I used the dining chair for a couple of years when I was not working. But we changed the dining arrangement and it is not the same any more. I also use a sit-stand (stand mode) for 2-3 hours, on a shop stool sitting mode ($60 odd from costco) for a bit, in my recliner for a bit, and recently tried sitting on the floor with a floor chair. It all works to varying degrees. My sit/stand is in my garage, so it does not work 3 months a year and then there is heavy reliance on inside, but for 9 months a year, it is quite habitable.
No RSI/other issues to me also (knock on wood) and I am over 50 but I am starting to sense more and more that recliner (even if 4 hours) is not good and consciously try to reduce an hour or 2, but was quite hard to do that with the recent bay area heat and fires.
Chairs? I am trying to move my office chair home, but that is so that I can cut down the recliner usage, but if I had a better dining arrangement (or my old dining arrangement) I probably would not bother.
Yeah, in fact I'm feeling that the simpler it is the better. All these expensive complex designs seem comfortable at first, but after a month it turns out that "ergonomic" features a chair has don't exactly fit your body anyway and it ends up with pain in the neck or something. With simple rigid chairs it's never really a problem, either you sit up straight or it just gets uncomfortable and you are forced to get up and stretch a little.
I don't use a wooden chair, though, because I like the wheels and ability to rotate. But I much prefer very-very basic office chairs to all these gaming super-ergonomic overpriced whatever. I mean, they felt cool when I sat on them for the first time, but then it turns out to be fucked up in ways I admit I'll never be able to predict when buying one.
Half way through Covid I switched from a high quality office chair to a high quality dining chair (because the office chair was borrowed)
I feel a major change in comfort and that I need to “offset” the discomfort prolonged hours in the dining chair gives through standing and exercising.
Basically, if I am more conscious about standing and exercising I too have no problems with the dining chair - but it does require more exercise than the office chair for the same level of comfort I feel by the end of the working day.
It sounds like your routine is already good enough to offset it.
Regardless of what I just said, I still have a nagging feeling about long term consequences.
I prefer a wooden chair to an office chair, because it's so rigid. I had a one of those fancy $2000 office chairs and I would always lock it so you couldn't lean back. But even locked it would have a little bit of give to it.
Here's where it gets weirder though. I used to have padding on my chair. And it was the the kind of shitty strap on padding that would slide around, and after it did, my leg would reliably fall asleep. One day I got tired of it sliding around and just removed it. My leg never falls asleep anymore.
Only complaint is that leg reinforcement has an II shape instead of H, so there is a little bit of sideways instability.
Ι also use a wooden dining chair. I find the simplicity and hardness of the wood quite pleasant. I do use an adjustable height standing desk, so the main potential issue of a height mismatch between chair and table isn't a problem. One small issue with the chair is that the seat has a slight upward angle, as opposed to the downward angle recommended in the article. I add a buckwheat crescent pillow, which solves this and gives me the option of sitting in a wider variety of positions.
I used a dining chair for a while and it was ok. It got the job done. But then I got a "proper" office chair and I would never go back. My only regret is that I did not make the purchase earlier.
Before purchasing a chair, I went to an office furniture and tested several chairs and had the employee point out why people preferred different chairs. In the end, I got an Aeron. Also, it comes in 3 sizes and I made sure to get the correct size for me.
I alternate between a Herman Miller Embody and a wooden dining chair. The wooden chair is good for meditation (when I need to keep my back straight and unsupported) and for when I want to be more mindful of my posture for a few hours. The Embody is great for both zoning out and just focusing on work while forgetting all about my posture. I spend more time in the Embody but both chairs get used everyday.
I've been fine using a dining chair at home too. I don't feel much difference between my office chair at work and my wooden dining chair at home. I'm a runner too, for reference.
Maybe sitting in less comfortable chair is better than a comfortable one over long periods because you adjust your posture more. I personally haven't noticed this but maybe I do it unconsciously.
I use a wooden dining chair at one computer, and one of those old wooden swivel "banker" chairs from the 1930s. I replaced its inferior wheels with large felt pads that are gentle on my floors. It creaks and has to be oiled once in a while.
I used a fancy chair for a bit and got neck pain. Switched to a normal wooden chair, sometimes with a pillow to sit on, and I’m doing great now. Weird but works for me I guess. I do stand quite a bit too.
I’d like to chime in here. Posture is terribly important. No chair can help fully if there is dis or misalignment (maybe even from previous chairs that gave you bad posture)
It is mentioned in the article briefly, and I feel it is a missed opportunity to discuss it.
I currently use a series of exercises that I designed specifically for combatting the ails of sitting, and it has been a big improvement. The chair i use matters less now.
At the beginning of the lockdown, as I didn't have a dedicated computer desk and chair, I was working at my dinner table, sitting on a regular dinning chair. It lasted for about 1 month or so until I broke both the chair and my back (I could not move one morning and had to spend a few days in bed).
It could be you have better sitting discipline (I tend to slouch when I sit), might be that you are more active (I didn't notice any issues last summer, when I was sailing every weekend, but then, I was not sitting at my dinner table for that long either), might be your regular chair is not that regular :)
It is a very good chair. The build quality is fantastic and stylistically it still holds up.
It is truly a "lounge chair" though - almost a semi-recliner. I rarely use it if it's a social situation because it sits back so far. It's amazing for relaxing and watching TV or a movie though.
I'm assuming the quality has held up. I've never tried a knock off.
The Eames Lounge Chair is a very comfortable chair, a lot of the high price comes from high quality materials, fair labor and environmental protocols of the processes and materials. Herman Miller is a quality manufacturer and is dedicated to making great furniture.
You will probably be able to tell the difference in the feel of the materials and the design details between the HM and replica. I've sat in a few different versions of replicas and the original and they are all very comfortable. The replicas are lower quality, you might not have them for 50 years, they might die earlier, they are after all a 'skin-job'.
If you're really thinking about it, do consider the resale value as part of investment, nice used examples fetch $3500-4000. If the classic Black and Walnut is your style that will probably be the easiest to recoup if you decide it's not for you.
Watch DWR or Hive they some times have 10% off sales that will at least save you the taxes or shipping depending where you live.
I've been using one of the knockoffs for about 6 years as lounge/work chair. It's comfortable for things like reading, listening to music, and sitting in video meetings, but not the best posture for heavy typing.
I like the design and it fits me, but it's worth pointing out the lack of adjustment. Unless you want a purely decorative chair, I recommend finding someone with one you can test drive.
The seller I bought the knockoff from has since evaporated, so that's another potential concern if it ever needs repairs.
There's a replica chair at the office I work at and it's by far my favorite. I've written a lot of good code there :) Very comfortable and I can sit in it for a longer time than any other chair.
But I need to have a table or some other surface nearby to place a drink and a notebook.
I bought a used aeron for home ~ $250 and I noticed it had some play in the column and sunk a bit.. $50 to amazon and I replaced it. Now it's a year or so later and I'm suspecting that the web mesh could use a refresh (the pan assembly is ~ $220)
I found my Aeron chair triggered my lower back pain. Since then I’ve moved to mostly using a standing mat and standing up as well as strengthening my core. I might try sitting on my Aeron chair after a few months of core strengthening
I've had a terrible pain in my tailbone going on a few months now. I finally relented and got one of those donut shaped memory foam pillows. 40€ for a block of foam with a hole in it is criminal, but after using it for a week now, I must admit it does help a lot.
I get some insane neck pain with these. Found I work better altering between standing and using a normal wooden chair. Not amazing sounding but it works for me.
I have sat many hours in an Aeron (and am sitting in one right now), but am not sure why I don't hear more about the Herman Miller Sayl Chair. I find it vastly more comfortable.
Probably the biggest reason is timing. The Aeron came out in 1994 and became the chair to have for dot-com startups. It was a huge perk to have a chair like that (there wasn't really a comparable chair at that time) and that led to enormous brand awareness.
I bought an Aeron a few years ago, but also considered the Sayl. I went to a Herman Miller dealer and tried all the chairs. A salesperson talked me through the different adjustments for each chair and explained why people preferred each of the chairs. When someone can sit in them side-by-side, they will pick the one that they like the most, which might be the Sayl. But many people only know the name Aeron.
I thought we had it bad with our school chairs in Germany but that picture makes me think Foucault was onto something when he compared the education system to the prison system.
It's not comfortable but I don't think that's the worst chair especially if you pay attention how you sit in it. The worst chair is the cheap office chair that is often misaligned, wobbly and encouraging you to rest your back in a wrong way. And the free rotating swivel makes sure you are you really have a bad posture and not being able to sit properly. I relearned to sit down and now prefer a rigid surface and most often don't rest my back on anything. If your back is tired and you need to use the backrest it's time to get up and walk around a bit.
You can almost certainly improve how you sit down. A lot of people just sort of flop down and sit with their hips slid forward and a pronounced bend in their back. Anecdotally I have also noticed many of the same people complaining about a lack of legroom in trains, airplanes, cars and so on.
If they would simply sit down by pushing their butt and lower back into the chair instead of lazily flopping down, there would be plenty of space.
(Not directed at those people with long legs, who do have genuine legroom issues even when sitting up straight)
You should absolutely pay attention to how you sit if you’ve learned to it wrong. Once the proper habit is built you no longer have to pay attention, just check yourself once in a while so you don’t slowly go back to the old habits. I unlearned and relearned sitting habits in my 30s after having back pain. Now in my 40s im doing much better than in my my 20s. Once in a while I catch myself in a bad sitting posture but it seems to be getting better and better.
They’re find for like 15-20 minutes, but after that, they’re unbearably uncomfortable. I remember starting to fidget quite a bit after about 20 minutes in those chairs/desks. It made sense, but it just wasn’t ergonomic.
Imagine sitting there for 50 minutes, having 10 minutes to get to the next lecture, and repeating that three times in a short span. It’s awful.
Fortunately being spry and youthful offsets those disadvantages.
The only real crime of those chairs is enforcing right handedness on left handed students. This discomfort could be enough to create a slightly lower academic performance for left handed students on average compared to right handed.
My German high-school for some reason had one room with those chairs (which made them an interesting change once a week, not really annoying), but we had some lefty ones too.
Uncomfortable, but about perfect for popping your back. Though the back discomfort probably came from the horrid chairs in the first place, come to think of it.
Mrs. Krabappel: Well, children, our new ultra-hard PostCherfect chairs have arrived. They’ve been designed by eminent posturologists to eliminate slouching by the year 3000.
Martin: Mrs. Krabappel, I’m having back spasms!
Mrs. Krabappel: I know they seem a little uncomfortable right now, but eventually your bones will change shape.
On the other hand, the people in those seats rarely do so for more than an hour. Other factors kick in because of that, such as cost and space utilization (which is effectively cost in a different form).
Then again, I rarely had issues with sitting in them. Working space though, that was an issue. (Work on an in-class problem while referring to the text book? Ha!)
Chairs need a failsafe mode. This is what I call better design.
Recently my father sat on a chair that collapsed underneath him. It was a seemingly okay teak garden chair that had been recently in service and offered up to important guests. So in that way it was good that it was him rather than his brother in law or elderly neighbour that received a bruised elbow.
This got me thinking about the safety of chairs. This chair - a folding chair - really should have included a wire around the seat so that it had a failsafe mode in order to prevent complete failure once the wood of the seat eventually gave up.
There should be proper testing of seats to see if they are fit for purpose. Car seats for babies can't be passed on because there could be some crack in the polystyrene, yet regular chairs have no standards for safety. It is not a big deal until such time as you see a valued relative come a cropper.
Design is how it works and chairs are not designed to have a failsafe aspect to the design.
There is no such thing as an accident. If your chair breaks in a restaurant you can sue them. I bet the restaurant owners never thought of this when setting up. Injuries can also be quite serious, it depends on the circumstance and the individual.
Your argument is the same for airbags, seatbelts and wearing hard hats. We live in a Health and Safety world where liability exists. Except for chairs.
I don’t think I’ve ever found a chair that I felt completely comfortable in. I like to sit upright and feel alert and most chairs seem to be made for relaxing. I’ve always wondered if it’s just me or not, and have often thought about designing a chair but realistically I don’t have the skills :(
I have this same issue. I've never seen a chair that supports shoulders back and down good posture. They all seem to hunch or arch forward. None offer the mid back support needed to put your chest forward.
Same situation for sitting cross legged. My solution for posture has been a standing desk. I never really made any progress on my posture until I started standing.
At age 35, otherwise healthy and having spent 10 years in Herman Miller Aeron chairs, I had hip problems and a small but growing waistline.
Then I transitioned to working from home and built my own standing desk (sadly before the very affordable mechanical Ikea standing desk was first released... But which I have now happily used for years).
The first few weeks were challenging, but within three months I could stand for 12+ hours a day, and my hip problems went away. Also my overall energy seemed higher, and afternoon energy dips became less noticeable.
For 13 years now I stand for virtually all of my day, and I have no back or hip problems. I do have slight spider veins on my ankles and knees, and that may be due in part to the standing. But it is cosmetic and barely visible, and totally worth the trade.
It's due to the standing - my mum spent most of her life standing at the counter in our shop and she has suffered from vein issues since she was about 50. Lots of swelling as well.
Like anything, sitting, standing, jumping - it's worth doing everything within reason. Possibly just switching between positions throughout the day.
Of course, these things can be gene dependant as well, but if you already have some spider veins showing, hopefully you can be a bit more aware of the problems that can come about later.
She really suffers badly from all those years and it's not something that's easy to fix.
I don't have any swelling. That's an indication of other health problems.
I also don't stand like I'm a statue, however. I'm often shifting around a bit, and usually I stand on a nice firm thick padded mat. If nobody is around and I have some good music on, I might even be dancing a bit.
I have the desktop height at the level my hands would naturally rest at if my arms were bent less than 90 degrees (so the interior elbow angle would be about 100 degrees or so).
My arms are resting comfortably at my sides, so the motions my hands make for typing/mousing are comfortable. I'm thinking of an Ergodox to alleviate some wrist rotation issues, but that's nothing to do with the desk.
Do note that for some reason, in standing mode it is necessary to have the monitor higher so the head isn't looking way down and hurting the neck. When sitting, this isn't as much of a problem. However, I spend most of my time standing, so I have the primary monitor height such that I'm only looking very slightly down. My eyes are even with the upper third of the monitor. Also, it's important whether sitting or standing to not push the monitor too far away. That can lead to hunching forward or craning the neck.
If you're using a mouse my PT told me to "anchor" your elbow on the desk so you use your wrist to move the mouse, not your upper back. This is true whether standing or sitting.
There was a good reason I was in PT and was told this ;)
I've always used a mouse with my fingertips, and my outer hand bone is resting on the mouse mat. Rarely am I pushing the mouse around with my entire hand or arm...
It's not your "entire arm" per se. It's that - per the PT - the shoulder and upper back aren't designed for repetitive micro-movements. That is, unless your elbow is anchored your shoulder is likely doing more work than it should.
I tend to rest my wrists/outer corner of hand on the desk, just like I do when sitting. Can't say I've ever noticed a difference between sitting and standing when it comes to typing
The best position for me that I find for typing and this might be my own body and preferences, is to have elbows tucked close to the rib cage and keyboard on my lap or as close to the body as possible and relax arms, not rest on them at all but having them hang from the shoulders. Having a standing desk is very tempting, the only thing is that I'm not sure how I'd replicate the typing position I just mentioned. I'm now very curious and I think I'll run some experiments.
I can't stand and type for long, as soon as I start to zone into it my legs want to go off and do their own thing and it totally messes me up. But, turns out most of my day is reading text, reading code, meeting, debugging, etc and not nearly as much typing as I would have guessed otherwise. It's easy to find a few hours that I really don't need to be sitting.
With a sit/stand desk you can start by standing up for meetings, phone calls, etc, that don't really require typing at all and then see what else you can do standing.
It is well designed, sturdy, and meets both my sitting and standing needs. It does take about 70 cranks to move from one position to the other, but honestly that takes just one minute or so (and I rarely move it anyway).
For anyone that have sore butt syndrome, here's my personal tip: improve blood circulation of your...butt!
I bought Steelcase Think six month ago to replace my $50 chair, and while it is good chair with good price and comfy-but-firm seat cushion, it cannot solve my chronic "sore butt" problem. Half and hour in the chair and my butt soreness begin to appear. Doesn't help that I'm the type that sit in front of monitor all day. I know I need to move more frequently, or did some light exercise or stretching, but when you need to work, you need to sit anyway.
Then I read that the soreness is the result of lack of blood circulation, so I decide to give thing that improve it a try: a beads car seat. You know, the vintage-looking one taxi driver use.
THE SORENESS IS GONE. It's been several months since. Now I can sit all day long without feeling a thing.
Note that the version I use is the 'beads mat' with rubber texture on the bottom(This is important because it help prevent the beads seat from slipping)
Sore butts are a common theme in cycling :)
On longer rides people might prefer harder saddles. A softer seating clamps down on your soft tissue and prevents proper blood circulation. Having a harder seating will make you sit on your sit bones and have your blood flow free. The sit bones can start to feel a bit irritated after some time, but that is the time to get up for a walk. If your soft tissue (from lack of blood flow) starts hurting, it is because it is starting to get damaged. Even if you would walk for an hour and sit again, the pain would come back instantly.
That's new to me! because I never ride a bike more than 10 minutes at a time haha.
Everything you describe is what I experience. I have good time sitting on my old wooden chair, and yes, the butt is free of pain (but my back hurt instead, because its backrest is in upright 90 degree angle) also there is not armrest whatsoever so I can't work for long....
well, maybe that's the point, I need to move more.
We would do better for ourselves to get rid of chairs entirely and sit on the floor. Getting down and up from the floor is a natural human movement that would keep us all fitter into old age.
https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/furniture-free-ahs13/ is an example of someone doing this in their home. Personally, my setup is a coffee table along with a zafu (buckwheat hull filled floor cushion) and sheepskins or a zabuton to cushion the floor a little. It's very comfortable, although I'd like to also have a standing desk to go with it. Coffee tables tend to be a pretty good height for this purpose if you want to avoid purchasing something custom. Besides that it's just a regular desk setup, albeit missing drawers or storage on the table.
Yeah, here is what I'm working with as of now. Moved recently (like everyone else) and still getting an office setup, but this is the basics. As far as height, I'd say it's a very ergonomically sound setup when in kneeling position with the cushion in between your feet. Laptop just below eye level, arms level, etc.
I think the biggest benefits are it forces you to move and adjust a little bit more than in a chair, and forces you to use your muscles to sit properly much more. Would highly recommend to anyone.
https://ibb.co/XYN3HFx
I was browsing though the different pillow/cushion and was a bit worried at first by the $150 zafu/zabuton but it looks like there are ~$50 ones so I can give it a try.
See my other comment in this thread. I consider a lap desk the essential tool for a floor sitting setup because it puts the peripherals exactly where they need to be, on a comfortable and portable surface. Everything else can be improvised to start.
I have some experience with zen monasteries in the West. It's generally considered very unlikely that you'll be able to sit for over an our on the ground without significant pain arising unless you're unusually flexible or grew up sitting like this. Forcing yourself to sit for long hours can be good for your practice, but it can also lead to injury.
The Ikea POANG recliner chair, you know the one, is the most comfortable chair I have ever used, you need to rearrange your desk setup because its so low and leaned back but once you have it destroys any other option out there, your back is just relaxed.
I actually have such a setup, but I've recently moved to a standing desk, it's just too claustrophobic for me to work in such a reclined position all day. However it's very comfortable for shorter periods of time!
I have been trying to find info on laying down desks and chairs in the past few weeks, but there is really not a lot of people who have experienced with it. If you had, please comment here
Here is my setup, which is a very inexpensive, low-footprint way of doing it:
1. A large lap desk. This is a powerful tool for adding flexibility as you'll see. It lets you keep all the peripherals near you. I currently use it with a USB hub, a 65% mechanical keyboard, a keypad with macro functions, and a trackball mouse.
2. A floor chair with reclining functions. The one I have is one of the cheapest on Amazon, basically a folding backrest with a bit of cushion.
3. A laptop/monitor arm and a shelf to hang it off of.
With a laptop angled at 90 degrees so that the screen is overhead, I have a fully supinated setup on the floor, with the floor chair folded most of the way back for support.
But it gets better. With a low folding table or breakfast tray I can switch the laptop and chair over to floor seating. Here the lap desk serves as a way to let me move around more. This is a great way to add variety of posture and stretch as I work, and I find that I use different positions for different levels of intensity during the day. Supination is better for passive viewing, while upright with no support is focused, intense. Seated with the chair reclined is the medium for "Tired but still want to work".
And then I still have more traditional feet-dangling seats I can use too. Again, just haul over the lap desk and plug in.
The best part is, none of these items need to cost more than $100. Most are closer to $50. So you can solve everything with an investment of perhaps $200-300.
You mean laying down to operate a computer? I've been experimenting with that on and off for about 4-5 years now. Looking to deepen / accelerate this practice recently.
It's pretty nice when it works well. I use one of those adjustable (3 joints per side) laptop desks and a mouse or trackball at my side. The laptop desk has a large lip on one end that prevents it from falling off when tilted.
The great thing about this is that laying down seems to reduce strain on the nervous system so much that it's a more sustainable working position in a lot of ways. I find that my overall working mood is much more stable, especially compared to 1h+ sitting upright. I sometimes go back to a sitting position at work in the late afternoon (WFH) and my energy seems sapped by sitting within about 30-45 minutes (not completely sapped; just compared to the laying position). Laying down, on the other hand, is much more sustainable.
I usually experiment with what I have on hand first (I used storage tubs and cardboard boxes to build my first standing desk), and I haven't yet tried any special chairs that allow laying down, except for a reclining couch.
I think my next experiment in this area will be a lumbar pillow to be used when laying flat. I've been surprised at how much lumbar support can make a big difference in chairs, couches, etc. A friend told me he believes lack of lumbar support in his chairs at home caused his nerve damage, and I can see why he would say that.
Some aspects that I don't like:
- It has a social stigma. Either "hospital bed" (are you sick?) or "lazy" (you've been in bed for how long today?)
- I can't (yet) put two 24+ inch monitors to use in this position :)
- Same with my favorite keyboard...laptops are what allow this to work.
- Some other minor things, but I believe paying attention to little adjustments can help here.
It kind of sucks that computers allow us to do most of our work while sitting in the same place. When I started working there were more reasons to get up, take something somewhere, walk to the printer and so on. This feels much healthier.
I don’t think any design with better chairs, stand up desks or whatever will make it healthy to stay in the same place the whole day. If I had to choose a career now I would definitely think about something that allows for more walking or other activity.
Gee, I was just thinking I needed to make some new chairs for the kitchen table (which seems to be a somewhat challenging woodworking project, as curves as usually called for and the way to craft them isn't obvious). I wish the article offered more advice about what makes a good chair, or chair alternative.
If you are going to invest the effort in a set of dining chairs, I would recommend watching the Wood Whisperer guild dining chair videos. I have made a Hank chair and high chairs, but have never made a dining char. I did buy the class and found how Marc Spagnuolo broke it down interesting and informative.
We just need neuralink with text input and output to the visual cortex so we could do our work literally anywhere: on the bus, lying on a bed, taking a shower.
I replaced an Aeron with a a gaming chair that was much more affordable (although it was back-ordered for a few months). What a huge improvement! It feels like I'm in a bucket seat in a car, which is basically what it is.
I got a gaming chair at the beginning of lockdown, and I propped up my desk to get everything to the right height. The things I looked for : adjustable arm rests, adjustable height, adjustable tilt and headrest & lumbar support.
Also buy a 28" 4k monitor, proper keyboard and mouse device of choice (I got an apple magic pad).
I got one in October because my old chair at home was dieing. I am so glad I did, its way better than the expensive chairs we have at the office, and less than half the price. I think its probably because it just has more adjustments, and I can get it exactly right for me and my desk.
I swear by my Herman Miller Embody chair. I used to have severe lower back pain, and this chair has helped me eliminate the pain by keeping a healthy posture. It's the only chair I found that locks my sitting position, keeping my hips the right way no matter how many hours I have to spend on it and still allowing healthy back movements.
Btw for those who are in London I can recommend refurbished Herman Miller chairs from this guy http://www.welovechairs.co.uk/ I’m not affiliated with him, just bought a chair from him and was very happy by the service.
Exercise ball is the best chair for me. It has the best cushioning unmatched to any unreasonably expensive chairs. Backrest and armrests aren't necessary. You should have developed enough core to support your weight.
You are free from developing injuries caused by long use of ordinary chair.
> The real science of ergonomics, Cranz argues, should point designers toward chair design that supports and enables the body’s need for movement, not stillness – with seats that angle downward in front, for example, and have a base that’s flexible enough for the sitter to shift their body weight from leg to leg
weird then not finding mention of the Varier Balans chairs.
I had one growing up, and bought another one after a month of lockdown as my home office setup wasn't meant for extended usage.
that one and a standing desk seems working well so far.
My sense is that we all just need to move more: sit, stand, roll around on the rug, squat, go for a walk, you get the idea. Basically don't spend the entire working day in a single position.
I briefly went through a phase where I thought I'd enjoy the no-furniture lifestyle, but it wasn't for me. It also wasn't for my partner, nor my parents when they come to visit, nor anyone else whom I might want to invite into the home.
I don't want to Marie Kondo the shit out of my space—I want to surround myself with beautiful, practical pieces of furniture that I enjoy using.
I don't think most people go and try out furniture before they bring it home. I'm talking multiple trips to a furniture store, where you go and sit and explore the same few pieces over and over and until you're sure you've found something you love.
You've got to stay seated for a bit to figure out where the pressure points are, whether or not the angle or depth of a seat makes your legs go numb, or hurts your back, etc. Do you like a firm seat? Do you like to sit "on" the cushions, or "down in to" the cushions? You want something with a high seat, or a low seat? There's a lot of furniture out there. It pays to take time to do the research, learn about how it's built, learn about different fabric types and how they affect the way a cushion holds it shape, then spend a good deal of money on a quality product.
Furthermore, there's a huge difference in quality between buying a chair from West Elm and buying a chair from Knoll. For instance, I think this is one of the most comfortable and practical chairs on the planet: https://www.knoll.com/product/saarinen-executive-arm-chair
We use it as a dining chair, and as a reading chair with an ottoman, and as a standard desk task chair. It's truly wonderful. Is it expensive? Yes it is. But it looks great, it's built well, it has a firm and comfortable seat, and it'll last a lifetime.
But hey, comfort is subjective, you like what you like!
- Of course, the Eames lounge chair is a classic, though if you're taller than 5'8" go with the Tall version as you'll get a deeper seat and head support. For those with lumbar spine issues, probably not the most comfortable: https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge-seating...
What I'm driving at is that the minimalism and tidying-up trend leaves a lot to be desired, and I've known a few people who have gone too far with it. But that's my opinion. If you want to live with two plates and two glasses and one pan and a single spatula, by all means.
If you want to donate four bookshelves worth of physical reading material and go Kindle-only, so be it. I think your space will be lesser without those books, but it ain't my space.
I like homes that look and feel lived in. I've walked in to homes that don't have a trace of humanity in them and I find it quite depressing. Modern architecture, interior design, and a good deal of modern furniture pieces strike me as bland and unremarkable.
When the WFH wave hit, people seemed to be going mad buying webcams and office chairs. Loads of people I work with spent a lot of energy researching and discussing chairs etc.
I have a sit-stand desk and I stand for perhaps 2 to 3 hours any working day. But the rest of the time I just sit on a normal old wooden dining chair. No pain. No aches. No RSI. No CTS.
I've been doing this for decades and nothing seems to have gone wrong yet. I do run 2 to 4 times a week so I do wonder if that helps avoid problems?
Are all the uber-expensive office chairs just snake oil? Or have I just been lucky?