Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Honest question: why "austerity in the face of recession is madness" for the countries in Europe, but it is the only proposal given by the IMF to Mexico in 1996 and Brazil in 1996-2000?

Austerity plans are always a tough pill to swallow, and they can cost elections - as it did to Cardoso's sucessor in 2002 - but I fail to understand what is this madness you are talking about. If it were not for the economic policy that forced a surplus in the Brazilian budget, I don't think they would be in the (calmer) situation they are today.



The IMF regime was utter madness and disaster for Brasil. It resulted in a freefall of the Brasillian gdp. GDP growth only happened after Brasil removed and loosened IMF restrictions in the mid 00's.

I do not know much about Mexico.


Wrong in all accounts. The GDP never actually fell. Average growth in 1994-2002 was actually just shy of 3%/year. Not good, but never negative.

As for the boom that came afterwards: Lula kept the basis of the economic policy started by Cardoso. In was only in the last two years of Lula's second mandate (2009-2010) that they tried to loose a little bit on government spending (as a way to fight contagion by Housing Crisis), and inflation had shown signs on creeping up again.

And even that increase in spending was only possible due to the austerity policies from the previous 15 years that allowed the country to grow their reserves. Had they not followed the IMF rules, they would be in the same situation that Greece/Portugal/Ireland/Italy are today.


http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&#...

Isn't it funny how the magical IMF benefits only come about after the IMF has been kicked out of the country.


And this is why politicians can lie with statistics.

GDP in dollars fell in 1998 due to changes in the exchange rate. The price of the dollar went from BRL 1.2 to 1.98 in a matter of a week.

Further, the spike that you see in your chart after 2002 was due to the dollar hitting an all-time high of BRL 4.00 when Lula was elected, and there was huge speculation in the market. After he took office and kept the monetary policy, the market calmed down and the BRL has been rising in value since.

Had the price of the dollar kept stable during these years, you would see a curve that shows exactly the numbers I mentioned before.

The IMF has not been kicked out of the country. Debts with the IMF were paid, but the monetary and economic policy is still there. The Brazilian Central Bank still recommends austerity policies for government spending. They still have the highest interest (inflation adjusted) rate in the world. Your cute chart does not prove anything.

P.S: It's in times like these that I really hate voting in discussion forums, and makes me even less of a believer in "the rule of the mob". You are completely wrong, but your cheap jab managed to convince a couple of uninformed people that what I said is worthy of a down vote.


This is GDP in current US dollars. Not in what US dollars were at the time. This is the only way to meaningfully compute GDP. Of course the choice of US dollars is arbitrary. But if you do some math you would realize that if you calculated it as GDP in current BRL you would get exactly the same curve.

But the only way to meaningfully measure GDP is to measure it against a single unchanging metric, and that's what they did here. Otherwise a country could double its GDP by simply devaluing its currency by half.


Are you sure about that? The chart is showing a growth in GDP of 21% in 2007-2008. The growth rate in 2008 was ~5%.

More importantly, it looks like it works the other way around. If you are devaluing your currency in half, your GDP in dollars (or whatever means of comparison you use) will be cut in half, not double. This is what your chart is showing. It will be a bigger number in the domestic currency, but then it doesn't mean anything because you are just changing the scale.

Anyway, we are arguing over details. The larger point is that the economic policy mandated by the IMF is still largely in place, and whenever the Brazilian government tried to increase government spending, a short growth burst was experienced with a very long bust.

Lula gave a 1001 speeches saying that "they were breaking free from the IMF", but in the end it is just political bullshit: interest rates are still high and it is the only instrument the Central Bank is able to use to keep inflation under control. This is pretty much the IMF "formula".

Update: looks like you are correct that they use current dollars. It still seems a misleading chart. Take a look at http://goo.gl/BCNIo and you can see the numbers I was mentioning.


The IMF does not exist for the well-being of (former) third world countries. It exists for the well-being of its masters, i.e. the US and Western Europe. This explains most of the policies that the IMF likes to push on developing countries.

Note that IMF-type policies of austerity can theoretically "work", if there are sufficient net exports. Even when domestic demand is savaged by austerity measures, the economy can grow by producing goods for the US and the EU at cheap prices. But net exports-led recoveries are a typical case of fallacy of composition: if there is a world-wide recession, then going for net exports will fail (unless we somehow manage to export to Mars...).

The problem facing the US and EU these days is that people seem to have forgotten that austerity was only ever a policy meant for the others.


José Serra, Fernando Henrique Cardoso's successor, actually lost the ellections not because of IMF policies was in place. Cardoso's party (PSDB) showed clear disregard for social problems - a considerable part of the population was so poor that they could barely buy any food, they didn't care about IMF, they had other basic needs. Luiz Inácio da Silva, on the other hand, was clearly a candidate of the people, he'd go to great lenghts to assure people that his duty was to put food on the table of those very poor people, while not screwing up middle class brazilians. So, it's not right to blame PSDB's failure on ellections on the IMF policies, it was they ignorance of the more urgent people's needs (not to talk about they selling huge state enterprises priced like bananas, corruption scandals, etc. that got people really tired of PSDB rulling the country).




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: